Nuffield 4DM buying help

A place for general Nuffield questions and chat
Freggel
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:02 pm
Belgium

Nuffield 4DM buying help

Post by Freggel » Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:15 pm

Hi all,
I'm new here. I will introduce myself when I decide to stay ;)
First of all, I'm from Belgium, so English isn't my first language.

I'm looking to buy an oldtimer tractor, don't really have a preference for a certain brand or type, but I like to be a bit different than the rest. Looking at what shows up at the local meetings, there are already plenty of Ferguson, Fordson an Deutz... Nuffield? Never seen one around here!

So, last week I stumbled upon a 1958 Nuffield Universal four (4DM) online and I liked the looks of it. Started searching online for some info info and I found this forum, a workshop manual and some basic info.

With all this in mind I made an appointment with the seller to see the tractor in real life. It was a 200 km drive, but the tractor didn't disappoint. The owner did however. Very nice and pleasant guy, but doesn't know anything about tractors or technique in general. He had the tractor for a year, did a few drives with it, but didn't do any maintenance on it because he didn't know it was necessary.

So, the looks of the tractor didn't disappoint, the tractor looks very original, it even has what looks like the original toolbox (mounted behind the seat, don't know if that's the original location) a few spots of paint missing, a few things touched up, nothing uncommon for a 60 year old tractor. No rust, only the battery box has some rusted through holes, but that's not uncommon with battery acid.
It has a new exhaust, not original (it has 'Honda' stamped in it :D)

It has been converted to negative ground, but still has what looks like the original generator. A few dash meters have been replaced, probably because the originals needed positive ground. All meters work, only the rpm and hour meter don't work.
Started the tractor, it was 15C outside and the tractor started without hesitation (without enrichment, the owner didn't know about enrichment)
No blue smoke.
Did a short drive, it shifts quite smoothly, smoother than the John Deere 1120 I drove a while ago. I did miss a foot throttle a bit. No smoke while driving constant speed, a bit black smoke when speeding up.
Oil pressure was good.
PTO and lift work but have probably been mislabeled by the previous owner (out-hydr-pto, while it seemed to be out-pto-hydr).
Clutch has been replaced before the current owner bought the tractor and as far as he knows the engine has never been opened.

So far so good, but there are a few things which made me ask the seller some time to consider (and to tell the story and ask questions here ;))
After starting the tractor I held my hand under the crankcase ventilation pipe and it blew some air out at idle. That got better when revving up. Don't know if that is normal or how much is normal?
My main concern however is a sharp tocking sound from the engine. Hard to describe (now that I'm typing this I think I should have filmed it) it seems to smooth out when revving up. I tried to pinpoint the location the sound was coming from, but that's very hard to do... You don't hear it at the exhaust side, only on the intake side and it seems to come from around cilinder 1/2, but there's a lot going on there with the waterpump nearby (that hasn't been greased for quite a while and it looked like the pully didn't run completely straight) the injection pump nearby (which had no oil in it, I thought a Simms pump needed some engine oil in it?)
As I couldn't pinpoint it, it makes me a bit afraid of work to come... It could be something as easy as setting the valves or an injector making some noise, but I'm afraid it might be something worse like a bent rod, engine bearing, tilting cilinder,...

Are there any known issues with this type of engine? Thinking worst case, any idea what the cost of an engine overhaul is? Is it something I can do myself? I am quite technical, but never worked on engines before.

I'm feeling conflicted, the tractor looks great in my opinion. On a 60 year old tractor I like the 'used but not worn' looks more than the 'look at how shiny new I am'. But that engine noise is making it a hard decision. It's not cheap (but it is a rare tractor around here) transport wil also be around 250-300 EUR. It would be sad that after a few drives I have to pay 1000 because the engine breaks down.

Images clickable for fullsize
Image

Image

Any input appreciated!
Frederik
Last edited by Freggel on Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Majorman
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:52 am
Great Britain

Re: Nuffield 4DM buying help

Post by Majorman » Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:15 pm

Possibly your noise is the fibre drive coupling on the fuel pump, a pretty common sound back in the day, listen to any Fordson Major diesel. Would not worry me if it were (going to be) mine. A simple and fairly cheap repair but will possibly run for hours without problems.
Kind Regards,
Brian

DAL PZ
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:39 am

Re: Nuffield 4DM buying help

Post by DAL PZ » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:44 pm

looks pretty good to me! that knock as above you would "know" if it were more serious. I am pretty sure it should be out hydraulics PTO but the shaft will probably turn "slowly" in hyd due to drag but should be able to be stopped by hand (careful how you do that) as there is no power going through it. Simms pump should have engine oil in it but most don't its lubricated by leak off fuel anyway so should never run "dry". Unless the tractor meter is smashed its most likely just the cable that's gone.
They do "breath" at the crank case vent but what you don't want there is steam which would indicate that the liner seals have failed & water in the oil (common but not difficult to fix) check the oil black is ok milky with water droplets in it is bad (liner seals)
Not sure about the headlights but the other lights I can see look original All the wiring to them should be in metal tubing if that's intact & the lights work all good The head lights look to have been rewired along the frame though personally I would want to replace that with a new front loom possibly from a later model where it wasn't tubed say a 4/65 & run along the engine block to tidy it up. the exhaust maybe Honda but its not that far off the original where the silencer was "pinched" top & bottom. You can fit a foot throttle quite easily if your a bit inventive one from a later Leyland is a good starting point
It would have originally been positive ground & a dynamo if its been changed to negative ground then its probably been fitted with an alternator which is may be why the fan belt doesn't look to be running true.
original tool box correctly mounted behind the seat on top of the hyd cross shaft rare most got taken out by mounted implements are the hinges OK & does it shut.
looks a good buy at a "reasonable price to me Oh & they always had the reputation of being truly amazing starters rarely needing the excess fuel button except in the depth of winter & they had been stood out they are pretty fool proof & you can do most things with the engine in place including the liners nor do you have to "split" the tractor to get to the clutch

diggerdeano
Senior Member
Posts: 427
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:04 am
Great Britain

Re: Nuffield 4DM buying help

Post by diggerdeano » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:48 pm

hi as said very possibly injector pump drive rattling on the fibre disc but be aware the couplings can come loose on the shafts but if caught early enough usually a new bolt or cotter pin sorts them but if left it could need a shaft in the engine side or pump side and a new coupling too, as for oil in the pump its not uncommon to find they have none in as noone ever checks them just add eng oil steering is a thing to check excess play in the steering box also the front axle trunion pin they wear if not greased regularly engines are not bad if treated with some care but check for oil in water and any emusified oil on the filler cap brakes tend to be an issue but not terribly exspensive to put right also check under the clutch housing theres a split pin through a hole to let any oil that has passed either the crank or input shaft seal an odd drip or two is ok

Nowtnew
Posts: 116
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:49 am
Great Britain

Re: Nuffield 4DM buying help

Post by Nowtnew » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:01 pm

Hi
Cant add anything to the above, but wouldn't have guessed that English wasnt your first language!

Good luck

Freggel
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:02 pm
Belgium

Re: Nuffield 4DM buying help

Post by Freggel » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:15 am

Wow, thanks for the great responses!
The injector pump coupling was also something I suspected, the knock was at about half engine rpm. But that doesn't rule out an injector or valve issue...
Too bad it's a 2 hour drive (so 4h total) to check some more stuff. I have asked the owner to make a short video of the intake side with the engine running. I hope he is willing to do so. I also can't ask him to test certain stuff as he is not at all technical (he knows how to do an oil change, but that's about it)
DAL PZ wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:44 pm
I am pretty sure it should be out hydraulics PTO but the shaft will probably turn "slowly" in hyd due to drag but should be able to be stopped by hand (careful how you do that) as there is no power going through it.
Front position of the lever was definitely off, the middle position was labeled "hydr", but lift didn't do anything then, PTO ran. The back position was labeled "PTO", the PTO shaft kept turning, and lift worked in that position...
Unless the tractor meter is smashed its most likely just the cable that's gone.
The meter isn't smashed, so probably indeed the cable is broken somewhere. Doesn't look too hard to replace.
They do "breath" at the crank case vent but what you don't want there is steam which would indicate that the liner seals have failed & water in the oil (common but not difficult to fix) check the oil black is ok milky with water droplets in it is bad (liner seals)
Checked the oil and both engine and gearbox oil looked good. Engine oil black, rear end oil clear. Forgot to check the water, but when I shut the engine off the meter showed a little over 90°C and I haven't seen steam anywhere, so that seems OK.
Not sure about the headlights but the other lights I can see look original All the wiring to them should be in metal tubing if that's intact & the lights work all good The head lights look to have been rewired along the frame though personally I would want to replace that with a new front loom possibly from a later model where it wasn't tubed say a 4/65 & run along the engine block to tidy it up.
wiring has been re-done at some points (and not always a good job, lots of tape ;) so that's indeed something to look after, but all lighting works (even the dash light!)
You can fit a foot throttle quite easily if your a bit inventive one from a later Leyland is a good starting point
did some research and there are indeed kits available (will have to buy online somewhere, like I said, never seen many Nuffields around here and never seen a Leyland or Marshall...)
It would have originally been positive ground & a dynamo if its been changed to negative ground then its probably been fitted with an alternator which is may be why the fan belt doesn't look to be running true.
the belt runs good, it is only the pully on the waterpump that looked to run a little off-center.
original tool box correctly mounted behind the seat on top of the hyd cross shaft rare most got taken out by mounted implements are the hinges OK & does it shut.
wow, so it is an original box. It looks good and it closes like it should (was locked with a small padlock)
looks a good buy at a "reasonable price to me Oh & they always had the reputation of being truly amazing starters rarely needing the excess fuel button except in the depth of winter & they had been stood out they are pretty fool proof & you can do most things with the engine in place including the liners nor do you have to "split" the tractor to get to the clutch
only good news! :D
Nowtnew wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:01 pm
Hi
Cant add anything to the above, but wouldn't have guessed that English wasnt your first language!

Good luck

Thanks for the compliment :D

A photo taken from the rear side with the toolbox visible:
Image

JohnM
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:46 am
Great Britain

Re: Nuffield 4DM buying help

Post by JohnM » Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:58 am

I wish my old 10/60 looked like that.
Not sure if this is relevant to the PTO hydraulics issue but a very interesting video about the two different types here:


Also this is off topic and a very long shot but as you are from Belgium with perhaps an engineering background I wonder if you have heard of DeMoor Lathes? I have one and have been unable to get any information about it other than I think they were made in Belgium.

User avatar
Jamie Davis
Site Admin
Posts: 184
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:53 pm
Great Britain

Re: Nuffield 4DM buying help

Post by Jamie Davis » Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:20 am

Hi Freggel

Welcome to the forum!

Looks like you might have found a nice tractor there!

There is always someone who knows the answer to any questions you may have on here.

Look forward to hearing more about your adventures.
Jamie Davis

Past - Nuffield 10/60
Present - Nuffield 460 & Nuffield 4/65

Freggel
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:02 pm
Belgium

Re: Nuffield 4DM buying help

Post by Freggel » Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:35 am

JohnM wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:58 am
I wish my old 10/60 looked like that.
Not sure if this is relevant to the PTO hydraulics issue but a very interesting video about the two different types here:
is that you in the video? I've watched practically all of his videos about tractors. Very informative!
Also this is off topic and a very long shot but as you are from Belgium with perhaps an engineering background I wonder if you have heard of DeMoor Lathes? I have one and have been unable to get any information about it other than I think they were made in Belgium.
it's a long shot indeed, but everything is worth a try ;-) I have an engineering background as I work as a maintenance technician in a food manufacturing plant. And I also own a Volvo 960 on which I do most maintenance myself. Unfortunately I have little experience with turning or milling. If it could be a help: a lathe is called "draaibank" in Dutch.

So I asked the owner if he could make a video of the engine running en he did this morning. Here is the result:

diggerdeano
Senior Member
Posts: 427
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:04 am
Great Britain

Re: Nuffield 4DM buying help

Post by diggerdeano » Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:51 pm

hi leave it well alone look behind the inj pump theres alot of bolts and a plate that should not be there i suspect its had cracked block and been repaired or its put a conrod through and been dodged that coupled with a knock . it maywell be fine but it maywell also be a problem unless its very cheap id leave it .

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